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PROFESSIONAL FIREARMS AND SELF DEFENSE TRAINING
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Ken Forbus
OWNER
Joined: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 750
Location: Georgia
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 Posted: 14, 10, 08 9:39 pm Post subject: Committee Meeting and Mandatory Training |
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Post from GCO Forum by Gunsmoker
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I think the meeting went well.
I was not aware that the Committee had in their hands a "template" or rough outline of some tentative proposed ideas for changes in the GFL process. One of the fundmental changes is to have a central authority, some State agency like the Secretary of State's Office, take over the GFL issuing duties. THis would get the 159 different Probate Courts out of the business.
Senator Mitch Seabaugh opened the meeting by complaining that what happened at the last meeting had been misrepresented and that evil motives had been attributed to the Committee members, when there was no basis in fact for such an inaccurate assessment. Senator Chip Rogers said some of the questions at the last Committee meeting were absurd, like how they were proposing to get rid all restrictions on all weapons and allow nuclear warheads on our bullets!
Sen. Seabaugh said we need to bring clarity to a gun law that both citizens and cops are confused about. But the focus of this meeting was on how to get a GFL, not where one should or should not be able to carry wiht it once the GFL has been issued.
Three probate court judges spoke. It sounds like they want to keep the GFL-issuing duties, but they want an unlimite amount of time to obtain and review all the many documents that may be required to fully understand a person's criminal history, including all the details of any incident that occured in their past. They say it normally takes 6 months to get the FBI to return a criminal history based on a fingerprints. (GCO President Ed Stone vigorously denies this, and says the average is more like 12 days).
THe probate judges say that they have no motive to drag their feet and delay the process. THey want their people to get gun permits if they're qualified-- but only after they have been thoroghly investigated to make sure that they really are qualified.
One of the probate judges, Bill Self, said that unless Georgia continues to use a fingerprint-based criminal records check, our GFL's wont exempt gun buyers from doing the NCIS instant check at gun stores and gun shows. ( This also was factually disputed by other speakers from GCO).
John "Sledgehammer" Monroe spoke for 10 minutes. He talked about the benefits of having one State-level agency doing all GFLs. One set of rules about how to make the payment, one set of guidelines for what offenses disqualify people and which would not, and only one agency that GCO would have to keep an eye on to make sure they're following the law.
JRM also spoke about how the State can, and already has for other types of licenses, use a private company as a subcontractor for fingerprinting services. That company is "Cogent" and they have hundreds of fingerprint facilities all over Georgia, with at least one facility within 25 miles of every Georgia resident. Cogent can quickly scan fingerprints and they will have a contractual obligation to produce a criminal history in 24-48 hours.
Matthew Podowitz spoke about how firearms training can easily be made too strict, too difficult, and too expensive, in order to discourage citizens from getting gun permits. He personally experienced this in a visit to Russia and the Ukraine several years ago. The Russian trainers admitted to him that the training was intended to be as burdensome as possible because their country's constitution didn't allow a flat ban on handguns, so this was a backdoor attempt to reach the same goal.
Chris Harris talked about how we was pressured into taking a "nolo" plea on a (untrue) marijuana possession charge back in 1975, which now prevents him from getting a GFL. (Later this same issue came up with three others--- Mark Ennis, Ron Van Fossen, and Steve Escobar. All of them are in the same boat, and all talked about how a small misdemeanor marijuana offense from many years ago is costing them their gun carry rights even today, and for the rest of their lives if the legislature doesn't change the GFL requirements).
Jeff Huong, who is himself a part time firearms instructor, spoke against any training requirement. He said that you can't mandate common sense. And he pointed out that the cost of taking hands-on firearms training can be prohibitive.
Nick Argyroudis spoke about how our GFL should be valid for other weapons such as stun guns, tasers, pepper sprays, and knives. One of the Senators agreed that it was a problem, and he had already heard of one case of a gun-carrying guy arrested at a supermarket for the KNIFE that he carried. The gun was legal, thanks to the GFL, but the knife was not.
Frank Rietta spoke about how the GFL should be avialable for persons over 18, not just over 21. He pointed out that some 13 other states issue carry permits for adults over 18, and at least that many more states allow unlicensed open carry for people of that age.
Roy McClain and Bob Thorton from the Georgia Sport Shooting Association (GSSA) spoke up to say that they don't want any training requirement, and no other burdens of any kind on GFLs. THey said that the NRA does NOT support imposing training requirements, even though that might help get reciprocity with other states. GSSA wants the GFLs to continue to be issued by local Probate Court judges.
Doug King pointed out how Georgia citizens can get increased reciprocity with other states by getting non-resident licenses such as Utah or Florida.
Dking was against any mandatory training. He pointed out the significant expense involved. Hundreds of dollars per person to be thorough with it and have an attorney discussing the legal issues.
Scott Vandiver (a regular poster here) spoke to say how good training was, and how much should be required. He advocated that GFL applicants have to take a 16 hour course involving both classroom time and hands-on shooting instruction. He said the cost would be $200 to $500, and he says he offers this sort of training for $300.
Mike Menkus was present early in the afternoon, but left at some point, and he was not there to speak when his turn came later in the day.
Mark, Ronald, and Steve talked about how one stupid decision on their parts, involving a small amount of marijuana many years ago, has cost them their GFL renewals, even though they can legally own guns, and even though a couple of them DID have GFLs issued to them for years before having it denied for renewal, and even after years of serving honorably in the military and otherwise leading a good clean law-abiding life--- still no GFL unless the Legislature changes the law. The Board of Pardons and Paroles will not, or cannot, help them.
Ed Stone went through quite a long list of proposed changes to the law. Too fast and too many for me to take good notes. Malum, would you like to give us a recap? One thing he suggested, that I was not expecting, is that the gun-related misdemeanors like a "public gathering" violation or "open carry without a permit" should not be disqualifying offenses when there has only been an arrest, not a conviction or plea. He pointed out that these laws are so vague and so often misunderstood by the police that anybody who carries a gun could be arrested, and then denied a GFL renewal, even when they did not really carry illegally.
The last speaker was the Solicitor of Hall County, Larry Baldwin. He's the prosecutor of misdemeanor offenses in the Gainesville, GA are.
He wants to see the background checks specifically looking for domestic violence offenses, and he wants to have a mechanism in the law where a domestic violence offender gets their GFL suspended or revoked immediately.
P.S. Back on the subject of a possible training requirement, Senator Don Balfour, who is himself a GFL holder from Gwinnett County, said that he's not comfortable with untrained civilians carrying guns on crowded MARTA trains where there may be many innocent people in the background. He said that he trusts police with guns in such a situation, because they have badges and mandatory training.
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My response to this post
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Sorry I couldn't be there also, especially now that a trainer has suggested mandated training.
Quote:
Scott Vandiver (a regular poster here) spoke to say how good training was, and how much should be required. He advocated that GFL applicants have to take a 16 hour course involving both classroom time and hands-on shooting instruction. He said the cost would be $200 to $500, and he says he offers this sort of training for $300.
That is just so wrong. Is there another meeting coming, so that I can make arrangements to be there. I am totally against mandated training by the state or the federal government.
Why would anyone recommend mandated training? It will lead to disaster in the long run. A mandated training class that cost $200 to $500, that will exclude a lot of people from affording a GFL.
I know some of us do this for a living (or extra money) but I do not want to make a few bucks at the cost of peoples rights. If you want training go get it, but mandated training is a bad way to go.
If they make it mandatory, I will do initial GFL Classes free for Georgians. That is how much I am against it.
Quote:
P.S. Back on the subject of a possible training requirement, Senator Don Balfour, who is himself a GFL holder from Gwinnett County, said that he's not comfortable with untrained civilians carrying guns on crowded MARTA trains where there may be many innocent people in the background. He said that he trusts police with guns in such a situation, because they have badges and mandatory training.
This is a false belief, shooting skills and training is perishable and is not followed up with continuing education what good is initial training? It is not worth much. I know people who have taken advanced training from schools, like mine, Rogers, Gun Site, Thunder Ranch, and other who CANNOT shoot, because the training was not maintained, Training has to be recent, relevant, and realistic in context. |
I am typing this here because this is my forum and it is not edited. This mandatory training crap is stupid. If trainers want to do this and help get it passed. I will do classes for free. Our freedom and rights are more important than making a few bucks. I will not charge people to defend themselves. Will there be a downside to thsi, sure there may be. Your right to self defense is a right, given to us by what ever god you believe in and our Founding Fathers. Now because there is an opportunity to get in and make a few bucks people want to go along with it.
What, tell me one thing our government, state or federal does that is effective? They do absolutely nothing effective except screw up the law abiding persons rights with mandatory this and mandatory that, you already can't enjoy a good smoke after a meal and a drink, you can't drive with out a seat belt, now the state is laying people off, our governments at all levels are suffering financially (at all levels) and you want to let these idiots control our state mandated training? What the fuck is your issue?
I agree if you are going to carry a gun you should on YOUR OWN get training and maintain it. As a matter of fact if you can't afford $300.00 for a class PM me or call me and lets discuss it. If your a cop and need additional training and can't get it through your agency or short on cash, the same goes for you.
Active duty military your free anyway! As a unit Uncle Sam will have to pay out the ASS!!!!!
For anyone to even remotely suggest that our government should be intertwined in anymore of our business is an imbecile.
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FIREARMZ- PROFESSIONAL FIREARMS TRAINING FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION OR WAR. |
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tombill
Ballistic Binky
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 6
Location: Snellville, GA
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| Posted: 04, 11, 08 1:58 pm Post subject: Training |
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I don't believe the government should make us pass a test to exercise our 2nd Amendment rights. I believe a responsible owner of firearms should seek out training on his own when they can afford it. I also believe in continuing your education and practicing as much as possible. If you can't afford weekly trips to the range, dry fire done properly can keep your gun handling skills from going sour and it doesn't cost anything. The government can't even take our money away from us efficiently, why do we want them involved in deciding how much training is enough. LEO aren't the crack shots the government would have you believe. They have to practice just like us other mortals or they'll lose their skills. The uniform doesn't make you proficient by itself, only practice will do that.
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